Wednesday, May 27, 2009

I guess I've got a new fan

A friend of a far bigger blog once told me that you only hit 'the big time' when you get a troll.

Well, it seems like I've finally got a troll for the blog. Now, I've decided not to publish any of his/her comments because they're totally condescending and to be honest, this person is more out to harass than to try and discuss things like an adult.

Well Anonymous (I guess you don't want to reveal your details to everyone here, so I will honor your 'request' and not reveal what I already know), I'm not sure if I 'know' you from my correspondence on other blogs but you're sadly wasting your time. If you want to discuss things like an adult, we can surely try. Otherwise, not much point sir/ma'am.

Have a good one.

14 comments:

Anonymous said...

Avram,

I thought I would do you the courtesy of replying to your post. You think far too highly of yourself to assume that you have "hit the big time". To tell you the truth I came across your blog at another site and what I was responding to was your sarcastic post concerning the number 61 which you said needed no asterisk.

IF I have misread your sarcasm and underhanded swipe at the miserable conditions that are a direct result of the occupational government that you seem to be so proud to be a part of then I will gladly apologize.

IF, on the other hand I am correct in my initial observation then it shall stand as it was.

I did not 'reveal' any 'information' that I did not WANT revealed. I am not ashamed of my belief, just as you seem unashamed of the beliefs you hold. I have 5 children that I do my best to teach how to LOVE above all things. To work with people and treat others with respect. I do not tolerate bullying, injustice, or liars. In my view the current occupational government that refuses HUMAN BEINGS basic neccessities while portraying them under the blanket of terrorism is abhorent behavior for people that claim they have a special relationship with the Creator of the universe.

IF your people are as they say, then behave like it. The disproportionate actions an inequality that exists as a result of this policy and belief is unacceptable.

I would greatly enjoy an open discourse with you if we can agree to refrain from name calling and condescention as it relates to the rights of EVERY human being to live a life free from oppression and abuse.

I am descended from American Indians and you being from South Africa OUGHT to have at least a working knowledge of the deplorable history of racism and apartheid. NO MAN has the right to treat others in the way I see innocent human beings being treated in Palestine.

If we cannot provide our children with an education of who created us and how we should best serve and love each other then we are ALL doomed to a future filled with the hate and death just as we see it carried out right now.

So if you're up for 'adult conversation' please let us begin.

James

Avram said...

Hi James,

"You think far too highly of yourself to assume that you have "hit the big time"."

I was joking sir ... My blog is meant for family and friends, so I tend to joke around more often than not.

"To tell you the truth I came across your blog at another site"

Yup, 'stat counter' let me know exactly where you were. But instead of replying like you have here, you started spamming my blog and my youtube unnecessarily. I thought that was a bit childish and unnecessary to be honest.

"IF I have misread your sarcasm"

I don't think I was being sarcastic. You need not apologize. There is much wrong that Israel has done in her short time here, mostly after we took over the territories. We've been stupid and arrogant. That doesn't mean I cannot appreciate the fact the country has reached 61 years considering the odds have not exactly been in our favor every step of the way.

"I did not 'reveal' any 'information' that I did not WANT revealed."

I know, but I found out most of it quite quickly. And I thought I'd give you the common courtesy, something you didn't afford me, by not plastering any of it here.

"just as you seem unashamed of the beliefs you hold."

You don't know much about me James, and you assume a lot.

"In my view the current occupational government that refuses HUMAN BEINGS basic neccessities while portraying them under the blanket of terrorism is abhorent behavior for people that claim they have a special relationship with the Creator of the universe."

As I said earlier, successive governments have wronged our neighbors (I wouldn't get into 'the strawmen' of how they're wronged continually by their own leaders and brothers, as it's pointless). Almost our entire government isn't 'religious', so I don't know what 'special relationship' they feel they have.

" The disproportionate actions an inequality that exists as a result of this policy and belief is unacceptable."

Are we talking here about Gaza? You're talking in general terms and it's hard to actually to answer that way.

"I would greatly enjoy an open discourse with you if we can agree to refrain from name calling and condescention as it relates to the rights of EVERY human being to live a life free from oppression and abuse."

Considering how you decided to introduce yourself to my blog and youtube account (with disrespectful comments towards my grandfather and son might I add), I find your 'name calling' and 'condescending' remark hypocritical.

"you being from South Africa OUGHT to have at least a working knowledge of the deplorable history of racism and apartheid."

What happened to the blacks of South Africa was disgraceful. Most of the world kept quite unfortunately while the real damage was done. How are you feelings about Darfur? The oppression of Christians in Egypt (you see what they did to their pigs recently)? The conditions in Saudi Arabia? Iran? Do you come after other blogs in the same disrespectful manner, or it's something in particular with pro-Israel bloggers?

"we are ALL doomed to a future filled with the hate and death just as we see it carried out right now."

It's sadly something I 'discuss' with myself non-stop because everyone (including my people) seems to be on that course you allude to.

"So if you're up for 'adult conversation' please let us begin."

Well, since this is the first post where I feel you've acted like an adult, I've replied in kind.

Have a good weekend,
Avram

Anonymous said...

Hello Avram,

I do owe you an apology. I did say some disrespectful things that upon reflection were out of line. I had a great deal of respect for my grand father also when he was alive. He was perhaps the best example I had while growing up and I am sorry for insulting him.

I don't have time to respond to you at length right now because I am going to leave town in about 15 minutes. I am going to have surgery on my shoulder so I may not be able to reply for a couple of days but please do not see that absence as neglect. I will be back to reply as soon as I can.

I do feel the same way about the injustice in other areas. Mostly because it is the result of U.S. policy, but we can discuss that at length when I return.

thank you,
James

Avram said...

Hi James,

I wish you a successful surgery and full recovery.

Take your time, I'm hopefully not going anywhere anytime soon.

On another note, I think this discussion could be handled far more easily if we both know where we stand on the 'main' issue ... the right of Israel to exist. If you don't believe that, then the discussion becomes more on that subject line, if you do - then it becomes more on how Israel moves forward to provide the same 'right' she got to the Palestinians.

Best,
Avram

Anonymous said...

Hello Avram,

I have recovered sufficiently to type now so I thought I would reply.

Thank you for your kind words. The surgery turned out to be more complicated than either the doctor or I had first thought. For the past 5 months I had had severe shoulder pain. It turns out I had torn the labrum, rotator cuff AND biceps tendon. I am out of the immobilizer and using a sling now.

I agree with the identification of the 'core issue' you mentioned in your last post. There are many difficulties but the underlying problem that exists from any perspective is the refussal of either side to recognize the other.

Muslims are not ignorant. They recognize and understand the principles of the Torah and it is for this reason that they refuse to recognize Israel as a 'Jewish state'. The Torah and the Talmud are diametrically opposed yet we see the expression of the Talmud as opposed to the teachings of the Torah. In your response you mentioned that:
"Almost our entire government isn't 'religious', so I don't know what 'special relationship' they feel they have."

Again on what basis does one claim a 'religious covenant' gives a particular group the 'right of possession' when by your own admission(and theirs) they are secular?

You mentioned that it had been difficult in those 61 years and that things had not always been in your favor. Since the inception of Israel, America has militarily backed Israel without exception. AIPAC is singularly the largest lobbying force perhaps in the world. Not one American politician dares stand up to 'the lobby'. Without exception politicians in many cases completely disregard the will of the American people to side with them.

America through its military contracts and financial aid do more to support your country than any other on the face of the earth. Our leaders follow after the policy designated by Israel rather than creating their own. This has been disasterous for ALL parties involved.

We can discount the changing of the guard and different parties being elected(your 'strawmen) and continue to think that we are just a step away from a solution but reality speaks volumes to using this as an excuse for failure to open the door to peaceful coexistance. A racist ideology will never bring about the solutions neccessary to communicate.

I am a parent of 5 children; the oldest being 13, the youngest will be 2 this month. As I consider the direction that I want my children to go I understand that I must equip them with the tools neccessary for them to be successful and the ability to critically analyze their situation, especially as we continue to see the destruction of the world's economy. One of the foundational priciples I have presented them with is that to be in the best position to be successful and self-confident you MUST treat others as you would like to be treated yourself even if it means exposing yourself to the possibility that you might get hurt in the process.

I realize that you might look at the way I first came to this site and completely write me off but I would like to respond with this.

I am deliberate in my confrontation of what I see as insulting people unable to speak for themselve. I came across your blog by accident and perhaps said some things that were out of line. I apologised which is far more than those I have encountered that hold similar beliefs in the past.

Anonymous said...

You asked me if I feel the same way about other groups. Yes, I do. I don't support the government of the US because they do not support the people of the United States or much of the rest of the world. Look at the history of US intervention in foreign countries and the exploitation throughout history. Look at what is being perpatrated against the American people right now. The events taking place are more catastrophic than any 'terrorist attack' and it's being carried out by people in power and they operate unmolested or hindered from completing that downfall.

I find myself in a very difficult position. I may have been 'born and raised' in America but I am ashamed of the actions of my government and the apathy of the people that surround me. I feel it incumbent upon me that I help my children to see and understand that the conditions we see are the result of choices made by people that espouse an ideology that is contradictory to the mentality neccessary to bring about an atmosphere of equality and unity. If approaching 'peace' and laying hold of it requires 'a new way of thinking' and processing that information then it needs to be done now and we need to cut ties with those people that do not hold that process to the same level of urgency.

After all the ONLY thing preventing change from happening is the claim that by waiting for 'those leaders' to bring us peace is the only way to obtain it.

They insist that they have the framework for peace if only the obligatory parties would just concede to the 'roadmap'. The truth is that such a result would not be in their best interests so it remains a phantom; just out of reach and leaving us wondering if we really saw it at all.

I hope things are well with you and your family.

peace,
James

Avram said...

Hi James,

“Muslims are not ignorant.”

I don’t think anyone claimed they were.

“The Torah and the Talmud are diametrically opposed”

Can you clarify that statement? I’m sorry, but I won’t give you the benefit of the doubt here in that I’m fairly certain you’ve never sat down to read this book while having someone who properly understands it explain to you the commentaries etc ... I’ve seen some terrible stuff on the internet slamming the Talmud and when I asked someone learned, I realized ‘why’ the slamming was done. The Talmud goes by some of the greatest sages in Jewish history (Hillel or Shammai for example) – I somehow doubt they weren’t ‘in line’ with the Torah.

“Again on what basis does one claim a 'religious covenant' gives a particular group the 'right of possession' when by your own admission (and theirs) they are secular?”

Who says that gives us a ‘right of possession’? Was it even mentioned in the declaration of Indepedence?

“Since the inception of Israel, America has militarily backed Israel without exception.”

That is factually incorrect. While they supported the founding of Israel in ’48, ‘proper’ (I guess we can term it like this), heavy US support didn’t start until the USSR became more ‘allied’ with the Arabs. A few noted examples are, a) we got most of our weapons in ’48 from the Czechs and French b) the US demanded we stop the ’56 Sinai campaign and c) the US (& USSR for that matter) were neutral during ’67.

“AIPAC is singularly the largest lobbying force perhaps in the world.”

I don’t know many lobbying forces here, or in the States or around the world, so I cannot really make a comparison. That they are powerful, I won’t deny. That I think they help us sometimes, I won’t deny. That I think they hurt us too sometimes with ‘their’ attitude, I won’t deny.

“Without exception politicians in many cases completely disregard the will of the American people to side with them.”

I somehow doubt this –

“America through its military contracts and financial aid do more to support your country than any other on the face of the earth.”

And yet they give far more money to other countries, as per information presented on US government websites.

“Our leaders follow after the policy designated by Israel rather than creating their own.”

Elders of Ziyon logic there ole chap. You have no way to prove that, it’s just ‘assumptions’ based on your political allegiance. And to be honest, the same line has been used for centuries, be it in Czarist Russia or in the US

“A racist ideology will never bring about the solutions necessary to communicate.”

Which ideology may this be?

“you MUST treat others as you would like to be treated yourself”

So now you’re quoting Hillel, from the Talmud, who said the same thing and said this is the ‘entire’ foundation of the Torah. Still diametrically opposed?

“I see as insulting people unable to speak for themselves.”

Firstly, I wasn’t insulting anyone in my posts. Secondly, have you seen how many pro-Palestinian websites there are? How many Palestinian bloggers? “unable to speak for themselves”? Come on …

“Look at the history of US intervention in foreign countries and the exploitation throughout history.”

They’ve done a lot of harm, be it the assassination of Lumumba or Panama, but I hope you can see the good they’ve done too – and they’ve done a lot. I don’t know what outweighs what –

“the apathy of the people”

They say ‘inaction’ is the ‘death’ of man … It’s sadly a problem with people in every country …

“Just concede to the 'roadmap'.”

Both parties haven’t been honest in pursuing this – because they don’t trust each other … That’s why a full separation is needed if the future will be better.

Have a good day sir – and a full recovery.

Anonymous said...

Hello Avram,

In response to your question about my statement concerning the Talmud vs. Torah. Historically the Torah is based on the Mosaic laws and the framework for faithfulness and obedience. The Talmud however is based on the oral tradition of a people sent into exile for their DISobedience. Furthermore it is the legal, argumentative justification for NONadherence to the Mosaic commandemnts.

Look at its treatment of the subjects of Kol Nidre, goy, and the superiority of life, liberty, and property of its adherents. IF the nature of the Creator were present the writings would include the equality in the creation of all mankind as opposed to a 'few'.

The history that you are alluding to, that makes up the origin of the current state of 'Israel' is like a 3-act play. World War 1 and the Balfour Declaration were act 1 culminating in the unexpected success of T.E. Lawrence's ability to unify the Arabs to overthrow teh Ottamon Empire. The period between the end of WW 1 and WW 2 saw the British undermining the promises of Lawrence to restore the land to the Arabs, which were never 'in the cards' because of the desire of zionism to occupy the land. Just like the Sykes-Picot Agreement, the end result of the Balfour Declaration did not take into account the indigenous populations, Muslim, Jewish OR Christian. That is because political zionism is an ideology based on military supremacy and that is based NOT on religion(Jewish state) but rather on superiority/supremacy of RACE as it is defined by, again the individual rather than 'religion'.

Having descended from Indians I offer a unique perspective of what you determine is 'the difficulties of Isreal's in establishing themselves'. I can relate first hand that exterminating the indigenous population in order to establesh one's own state is not a solution in itself. Is America a better place today than if the European settlers had not destroyed Indian culture? Assimilation was forced on the Indians in order to 'survive'. They were made to adopt recognition of a people that had no desire to recognize the 'hopes or needs' of the people that had lived here for thousands of years prior.

This brings us to act 3. The attainment of empire and expansion.

Israel cannot hope for a more successful background from which to draw its future. IF Israel should succeed in wiping Palestine off the face of the earth they will one day come to the conclusion that all the blood shed so abundantly has proven one fact. They are no different than the savages they claimed to purge their world of.

Don't even start with the 'Protocols'. Those have got to be the most ridiculous 'writings' known to man and for them to be included in the Palestinian 'constitution' is unfathomable. The only point that I can see is to further prove Jabotinsky's "Iron Wall" theory. That by smothering all forms of expession and representation the aggressor controls both sides of the equation. Abbas surely doesn't represent the 'will or desire' of his people any more than Obama represents those of America's.

To presume that Israel's power and influence have not established themselves within the halls of politics in the most powerful countries on earth is deliberatly naive. ALL America politicians shudder in fear of being accused of 'anti-Semitism' if they fail to follow the directions of 'the lobby'.

IF 'Jews' were made to live in the conditions they have created for the Palestinian people do you suppose they would survive 61 years?

peace,
James

Anonymous said...

I thought I would add:

"JERUSALEM – Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's grudging endorsement of Palestinian independence — couched in layers of stifling conditions — does not necessarily signal the hawk-to-moderate transformation that hard-line Israeli leaders before him have undergone.

Netanyahu's major policy speech was as notable for what it did not say, as for what it did: No acceptance of previous peace strategies. No reference to any Muslim connection to the land. No talk of uprooting Jewish settlements to make room for a would-be Palestinian state."

So how does this change the aspirations of the Palestinian people. How has this changed from the same diatribe we have heard for the last 61 years? and will continue to hear for the NEXT 61 years providing that Israel has not carried out its holocaust of the Palestinian peopls.

It doesn't because it wasn't meant to CHANGE but continue until the human beings that are opposed to being forced to live in such conditions have been exhausted and expired and relegated to the dust bin of history.

Again I pose the question:
IF 'Jews' were forced to live in the conditions they have created for their 'neighbor' how long before you suppose they would BEGIN to cry out?

I imagine by the end of the day.

Avram said...

James,

You're being very general in your 'clarification' of the Torah vs Talmud. Give some proper examples so I can actually discuss something. Your generalizations are making it hard to actually discuss this at the proper level it needs to be discussed (Again, I find it odd how you can say some of the greatest minds in Jewish history - be it Hillel or Shamai or Maimonidies etc - followed 'books' that are contradictory to the Torah)

"which were never 'in the cards' because of the desire of zionism to occupy the land"

History will show that the British had no desire to give the land to anyone. That's why you find Jews & Arabs slamming them, and Jews & Arabs praising them. They played both sides.

"political zionism is an ideology based on military supremacy"

Another generalization. Ahad Ha'am wasn't about military supremacy. Neither was Herzl, or Rav Kook, etc etc ...

"IF Israel should succeed in wiping Palestine off the face of the earth"

You claim this is 'our goal', but since more Palestinians have died in the hands of Arabs and not Jews/Israelis, I could easily say it is the goal of the Arabs. I won't but you get my point of how silly that statement is.

"Those have got to be the most ridiculous 'writings' known to man and for them to be included in the Palestinian 'constitution' is unfathomable"

But you included it in your writings by implying that Jews control the US etc ... I doubt they're part of any Arab constitution (I haven't read any so what do I know!) but they're a constant in their media and education system.

"IF 'Jews' were made to live in the conditions they have created for the Palestinian people do you suppose they would survive 61 years?"

I suggest you read up on the history of the Arab Jews as bad/horrific treatment was the norm for us in the Arab world. We were wearing yellow stars under dhimmi law in the 1000s (long before Germany eh?), beatings, hangings, pogroms, forced conversions (see Yemen's OFFICIAL LAW for Jewish orphans), Jews couldn't touch Muslims by law, etc ... We survived ok - and we won't go into European treatment of the Jews either. But this is a pointless comparison as it somehow seems that I'm 'turning a blind eye' to our treatment of our neighbors, which at times has been appalling.

"How has this changed from the same diatribe we have heard for the last 61 years?"

The fact you don't feel Israel has any right to exist makes this sort of debate rather impossible for both sides. Fact is, a majority of Jews supported the 29/11/47 partition plan - the Arabs did not. In fact, though we've obviously erred in peace ventures (be it Golda & Jordan in the late 40s, or Rabin/Peres and the Palestinians in the 70s), they've erred many a time too.

"its holocaust of the Palestinian peopls."

I think that's a disgraceful analogy. You're a teacher. You should know what the Holocaust was about - and to use that term shows a complete lack of understanding of 1939-45 or 1948-present.

"IF 'Jews' were forced to live in the conditions they have created for their 'neighbor' how long before you suppose they would BEGIN to cry out?

I imagine by the end of the day. "

As I answered earlier, it's a silly comparison considering the conditions Jews lived in for two millenniums.

Anonymous said...

Avram,

"Being very general"? Are you serious? Let me lay it out as clearly as possible. All you have to do is give me a one word answer: (yes or no) or (Talmud or Torah).

1) The Kol Nidre. Talmud or Torah?
2) Does the Talmud or Torah teach that it is acceptable to mislead and defraud 'goy'and that their life is without value?

I am well aware of Israel's position on expansionism and the 'creation of a Palestinian state'. To even mention those two subjects in the same sentence borders on inanity since one may not commence in earnest until the former ceases, which is the entire point of the conflict. Israel has no intentions of ever 'allowing' an independent, autonomous Palestine. EVER.

I used to side with Israel because I believed what I was told about the conflict, the people, and 'the right' of a group of people to unilaterally occupy foreign territory. Since then I have come to see settlers and a large number of Israelis just like the one in this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmPUenuEjoc&feature=related

and this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PynvDVPWkSA&feature=related

and this one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jDVXrXkKUg&feature=related

If I've gotten the wrong impression please help me understand the behavior and actions of these people that call themselves 'Israelites' because I'm having some trouble seeing the 'chosen' part.

I have 'read up' on the conflict, the origins, and the 'players'. I would be interested to know your thoughts on Jabotinsky's,"The Iron Wall".

"its holocaust of the Palestinian peoples."

"I think that's a disgraceful analogy. You're a teacher. You should know what the Holocaust was about - and to use that term shows a complete lack of understanding of 1939-45 or 1948-present."

I am a teacher and you cannot insult me into thinking I am not proficient in my skills. Like I said before I believed Israel's arguement for many years, that was until I began to ask questions and research the matter for myself.

"History will show that the British had no desire to give the land to anyone."

And history shows that there was a great deal of manipulation taking place on behalf of the supporters of the zionist movement. Are you familiar with the works of Edwin Black? I could offer a list of citations but I don't think you are really interested in my research, or others'.

"If you don't believe that, then the discussion becomes more on that subject line, if you do - then it becomes more on how Israel moves forward to provide the same 'right' she got to the Palestinians."

I get the distinct feeling you are being 'elusive' or obtuse. If I were opposed to ALL Israelis or the 'religion' they practice I would consider MYSELF racist, but my opposition is NOT to you OR Israelis in general. Quite to the contrary I have enjoyed our interaction and you have been far more accomodating than most ardent pro-Israelis. My opposition is to the BELIEFS that certain people hold which they believe gives them the power to determine what type of life another group of people should live or IF they should be allowed to live at all.

I will reiterate my previous challenge.

Anonymous said...

IF we could eliminate every condition for Palestinian statehood that Israel is unwilling to submit to itself we would see the truth about the "Israeli peace initiative". IT DOES NOT EXIST in this reality. If it were within my power I would make further aid to Israel contingent on the creation and maintenance of peaceful relations with Palestine.

It is becoming obvious that the Israeli PR machine is losing its ability to 'control the perception' of the events taking place. The recent drop in support for Israel's policy is just the tip of the iceberg. When people are being forced out of their jobs, homes, and lifestyles they tend to stand with and support others that they view are enduring the same type of conditions. Which in relation to our discussion would be the Palestinian people.

Perhaps Israel would agree to having their airspace restricted? or perhaps being forced into full demilitarisation? or being sterile in their ability to build an economy or forge alliances? Any takers? Don't set the conditions unless you're willing to submit to the same guidelenes.

I thought I would throw in this last tidbit just to show the unrestrained ignorance allowed to run rampant in Israel. Only the media could post such a stupid contradiction.

Israel ready for 'talks without preconditions' with Arab world - 9 hours ago
Netanyahu draws fire for Palestinian state conditions - 12 hours ago

peace,
James

Avram said...

"Israel has no intentions of ever 'allowing' an independent, autonomous Palestine. EVER."

Ok, another statement of opinion.

Wrt youtube clips - I find your examples sad but also hypocritical as I bet with you I can show you hundreds of clips of Muslims (from all over the world) talking about killing Jews, comparing Jews to pigs and apes, beheading people b/c of nationality or religion, hanging men because they're gay, whipping women who aren't dressed modestly etc ... and you'd react how? Point made, eh?

"I am a teacher and you cannot insult me into thinking I am not proficient in my skills"

Sorry dude, that just won't fly. If you think anything like a holocaust has happened in this region, then something is missing. No person with an understanding of the Holocaust (you say you do) & the events from 1880s onwards in the Middle East (you say you do) can compare the two ... and if he does, something is definitely not right.

"a great deal of manipulation taking place on behalf of the supporters of the zionist movement"

You don't say! We won't go into the manipulation on behalf of the 'Arab movement' (for lack of a better term) because balance is not what we're seeking here.

"I get the distinct feeling you are being 'elusive' or obtuse."

Join the club ole chap! :)

"IF we could eliminate every condition for Palestinian statehood that Israel is unwilling to submit to itself we would see the truth about the "Israeli peace initiative". IT DOES NOT EXIST in this reality."

Correction, it does not exist in YOUR reality. No peace treaties are made with 'all conditions' matched on the onset. NONE. Were you alive in 1945, would you have complained about the terms the Allies forced on the Germans or Japanese? Were they fair? The treaty with Israel signed with Egypt, despite many issues on both sides, has grown into a sustainable peace. That's what both sides have to hope here for because NEITHER side is willing to make compromises it seems (you like to blame only the Israelis for this, I prefer to be a tad bit realistic).

"The recent drop in support for Israel's policy is just the tip of the iceberg."

If you say so ... You neglect to mention that the support for the 'Palestinians' has not increased at all during the time period.

"Perhaps Israel would agree to having their airspace restricted? or perhaps being forced into full demilitarisation? or being sterile in their ability to build an economy or forge alliances? Any takers? Don't set the conditions unless you're willing to submit to the same guidelenes."

Again, a really poor argument in my opinion. You're in essence saying in any peace treaty, both sides must be under the same conditions etc. That just doesn't work in reality.

"Israel ready for 'talks without preconditions' with Arab world - 9 hours ago
Netanyahu draws fire for Palestinian state conditions - 12 hours ago"

Perhaps you should differentiate between the 'Arab world' and 'Palestinian state conditions', there is a lil difference.

Wrt your comments re Talmud/Torah, I'll get back to you in more detail ... but you're wrong about the 'goy' thing considering the Talmud says that the non-Jews who observe the 7 Noachide laws have a place in the 'Olam Ha'Bah' (next world).

I still think you're trying to delegitimize Judaism today for an alterior motive. From the most ardent anti-Zionists (neturei karta) to the most Zionist (religious zionists), all study the Talmud & Torah and place value with both.

Avram said...

James,

<<1) The Kol Nidre. Talmud or Torah?>>

Ahhh the Kol Nidre - before I answer the question indirectly first, let's answer it directly - neither. It's not from the Torah or the Talmud (it came later on obviously) ... But back to why I think you're citing it - some websites (let's not get into them) deduce the service as 'proof' that Jews are not honest as we nullify all vows before we make them. Unfortunately, that's not how "Jews" look at it ... It is only about unintentional use of vow words and that we're just being overly strict. An example of an unintentional vow is like back in Europe where Christians forced Jews to swear about things (against our faith, as per the Torah) ... Nowadays it is only if you say "sure i'll show up for lunch at noon", and you're 5 minutes late, you didn't keep your vow.

Please can you provide the quote (also source so I can try and read into it) for:

<<2) Does the Talmud or Torah teach that it is acceptable to mislead and defraud 'goy'and that their life is without value?>>

Thanks,
Avram